This week D'Janai tells the outlandish and horrifying story behind Alton Coleman and Debra Brown.
Alton Coleman and Debra Brown (11:19)
If you enjoy the show, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts! A little feedback goes a long way :) Thank you!
We launched the official Quiet As It's Kept website where the "True Crime Is My Love Language" mug is now available to purchase!
And don’t forget to follow @quietasitkeptpodcast on IG and let us know what you think of this episode and look at the graphics that D'Janai works so hard on. Also follow @qaikthepodcast on Twitter for updates!
This week D'Janai tells the outlandish and horrifying story behind Alton Coleman and Debra Brown.
Alton Coleman and Debra Brown (11:19)
If you enjoy the show, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts! A little feedback goes a long way :) Thank you!
We launched the official Quiet As It's Kept website where the "True Crime Is My Love Language" mug is now available to purchase!
And don’t forget to follow @quietasitkeptpodcast on IG and let us know what you think of this episode and look at the graphics that D'Janai works so hard on. Also follow @qaikthepodcast on Twitter for updates!
Hello everyone. And welcome back to another episode of quiet as it's kept. I'm half of this. Duo. This is Kristin speaking. Roger.
djanai:This is DJ speaking. Hello, welcome back to another episode of quiet as it's kept a true crime Shawnee podcast. Bye. Us
kris:the girls
djanai:the girls. Um, this week's episode is brought to you by gorilla glue and literacy. And I think those two things should always go together because gorilla glue. Is a permanent semi-permanent permanent adhesive, permanent. All right. Adhesive. and so most of you probably know what I'm talking about. Uh, a woman 40 year old Tessa Brown recently went on Tik TOK. She says, um, she was doing her hair. She, she ran out of her, got to be spraying. For her ponytail and opted to use gorilla glue. Now, I'm pretty sure she was looking for gorilla snot, the Joe, which I have used, first of all, that jealous shit. but yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what she was looking for. She ended up, you know, I don't know, in the tool aisle, um, she ended up in the housewares aisle
kris:I think she, I think if I heard her correctly, I think she. Ran out like at her home and then didn't feel like going out to get
djanai:that's what happened? Stop.
kris:yes, but I, and I think she thought that, Oh, well the other one has a gorilla on it. So this must be transferrable or the same thing.
djanai:you're lying to me. You're
kris:I,
djanai:Where did you, where did she say that? Because I'm following her on every platform.
kris:in, I think in the original video it's either that or she went out and I guess couldn't find it, find what she was looking for in the store. So opted for that,
djanai:Okay.
kris:that'd be on a completely different aisle though.
djanai:Exactly there is, the aisle with the spray and the gel and, you know, the Cantu and all that. And then that's where like she was, and to me, if I'm looking for haircare products, but then like, uh, there's wrenches and bleach around me, I'll be like, you know what? I might be in the wrong aisle.
kris:Yeah,
djanai:Uh, you would think that because even though it's, you know, it says the same thing, like. The gorilla, whatever, still, still like let's use context clues about. And I fully empathize with her. I do. And I was like, damn she, all right.
kris:fucking years. I'm sorry. I am so tired of this trending everyday. Let me, I did feel very bad for her when I first saw the story. And then with the progression of like, I think she's gotten like$12,000 for like, on her go-fund mean she's being floated out to LA to like, get it fixed by.
djanai:a glue, Dr.
kris:get like plastic surgeons or something and they're like trying to save her scalp, just baby, go bald. they cut her ponytail off and nothing mooned, nothing is budging. So she's just entirely too grown to be carrying on like this. And I, I don't like it. I don't like it. And she waited a month.
djanai:That's when you get tired of the hairstyle, you know, then it's like maybe the, maybe there is a problem.
kris:But I know that shit had to smell. Have you used gorilla
djanai:No. Okay. So thank you for bringing up my point because to me, even if I didn't read it, as soon as I would have sprayed the can, I would have been like something's amiss, something's afoot.
kris:Right. Cause it's like a, it's a step up, I believe from like super glue. So it definitely has a distinct
djanai:This doesn't smell like oars olive oil, you know, cause like hair care products, they all have like the
kris:they all have a smell. Yeah.
djanai:This is, you know, it's smell, it smells, industrial. So, I mean, but I did feel bad because there's two videos. There's the first video when she's explaining the second part, then there's the second video where she starts trying to wash her hair with no water.
kris:In using no fingernails either. Like if you were trying to get to your scalp, it would have been,
djanai:when she tapped her head, it sounded like she was tapping on granite. So I'm like, well, what was that going to do? But. She's, trying to wash her hair and then she starts crying a little bit. And that's what I panicked to. A lot of my friends started laughing at that point and everybody, he ain't shit for that, but I, but I was like, I'm panicking with her. Like, what do we need to call. Her sister ain't shit. I saw the video her sister put on a put up on Tik TOK. That wasn't very nice. Um, and everybody's just laughing and I'm just like, this is not funny because she is going to lose her scout. Like it's gone.
kris:okay. But I get at the, at the center of this story could have all been avoided, could have all been avoided. Um,
djanai:some missed opportunities. Yes.
kris:yes. And now I think she's like getting a lawyer involved, which I guess makes. Some sort of sense, but gorilla grew was like, it says on the bottle do not consume if it comes in contact with your skin, go to the hospital by what do you want them to do?
djanai:Somebody quoted their tweet of them saying like, you know, we feel bad for Ms. Brown. Like we wish her the best. And then somebody quoted it with that video from, Hey Arnold, when Oscar, she couldn't read.
kris:I mean, You read, come on now.
djanai:So yeah, gorilla glue and literacy should always go hand in hand. Those two things should be stuck together. Like her follicles. Go ahead.
kris:Uh, geez, just shave it off my lab. Um,
djanai:you can't sh can you can't shave granite, but I wish her really, I wish her the best. I hope they are able to salvage her scalp because this shit is very traumatic. But also side note scam alert. Cause I heard that the, um, the go-fund me wasn't even her, it was somebody else was posing as her.
kris:Wow. People still do that.
djanai:Yes. And then they first off, came out and was like, I told you like, yo, y'all got, got, if you gave me money, that's your fucking fault. I've been telling y'all, don't give me no, don't give money out to people. You don't even know who it is and what it's for
kris:I mean, that's right.
djanai:it's not incorrect, but that was really fucked up. So I don't, I don't know, I'm following this shit closely, like the goddamn news, but.
kris:Okay. This week's episode is brought to you by, uh, the hashtag free Brittany movement. I, uh, did tune in to her, documentary. I don't even know the name of the show, but it's like a collection of different documentaries. So the whole thing isn't just about Brittany, like, it's like a series, so it's just like an hour and five minutes, but, um, it's on Hulu. If anyone wants to tune in and it's called framing, Brittany Spears, and it's really, really sad. Uh, she's been in a conservatorship now with her dad overseeing everything from where she goes to, how her money is spent to career opportunities, to who she can date. He controls it all. And it started when, of course we know back in Oh seven Oh eight. She had just had two children back to back, um, which her mom has spoken out and believes that some of her antics was just postpartum depression, which no one was talking about that shit and Oh seven let alone, like last year people were just like, Oh, you can be like depressed after a baby comes out of you. Yeah. Yeah.
djanai:everybody swears a, baby's a gift, a gift from above. And it was just like, well, my hormones say different. I
kris:Right. Right. And so it also goes into just how the media treated her, like from the jump TV show hosts and late night hosts were just so creepy with her. And like always asking her about her boobs or if she's a Virgin or yada yada. So, um, it paints Diane Sawyer in a very bad light cause she did an interview with her, 10 years ago. And Diane was just so non-empathetic and very much on some haterade and misogyny bullshit. And then I'm also paints Justin Timberlake in a negative light because. Once he released that song, Crimea river, which insinuated that Brittany cheated on him, which no one has been able to confirm ever. Um, you know, she became bad girl Brit kind of, and was just like, fuck it. And so, yeah, there's a, there's a long legal battle ahead and for her to get her father removed. Um, and she's not even asking for the conservative to ship to necessarily in she's just like, I just don't want my dad in charge of it anymore. I want my mom or someone else I appoint, um, cause her dad kind of sucks, but you should check it out. It's only an hour. Um,
djanai:going to watch that cause
kris:and shout out to the girl. Yeah, she's amazing.
djanai:Oh, so sad. I'll definitely check that out. Um,
kris:Uh, it was fun. It was great. Yeah. I, it was very low key. Um, not much to do. I mean, I could have done things, but I'm, I'm in that I'm like, Fifth wave of like COVID panic where I'm like, I just really don't want to get this. So yeah, it's I, I like, I want no parts, so it was nice though. Very low key. And hopefully next year I can take a trip somewhere.
djanai:Yes. Yeah. Hopefully we can all take a trip somewhere cause this, this shit is too much. Um Announcements, we don't really have any, the site is still up. The mug is still for sale. The girls are starting to get them. A lot of people got them, yesterday and the other day. And so it's good to see people are getting it and loving it. Um, if you haven't seen it yet, you can go on our Instagram. You can go on our website to check it out. Super cute. Um, And also just a reminder, if you guys want to get straight to the meat and potatoes on every episode, there are chapters. So you do not have to listen to us, to our us and our made up sponsors. You can skip right to the story if you would like to. That is your prerogative. My dear. Okay. So this week I have a story, and as usual it is a doozy, And I was, I had a hard time figuring out what I wanted to do, because I was like, you know what, Valentine's day is coming up and it's black history month. And like, you know, what should I talk about? What should I talk about? And so I found this story, which, I, I had never heard of if you could. I mean, I guess it's a story of black love. You could say. Um, it's just not the kind we want. Um, this is about to be the worst one I've ever done. I mean, including the first one, which was pretty bad episode one, I don't, I don't know why I hit the ground so hard. That was a lie. Um, but this is really not for the weak of heart. Like y'all would have weak stomach, just maybe wait until next week or something. Cause this one's going to be a lot. All right. So Kristen, are you ready? Okay. So I want you to follow me to Gary Indiana. Uh,
kris:Isn't that from the Jacksons are from right. They'd be beating people up in Gary
djanai:yes. But this is not them. Um, Gary Indiana is June 18th, 1984. Michael's big already. Okay. He's already torn.
kris:if that's he's on off the wall, I think at this
djanai:Wow. You really had that shit in your back pocket. Um, Um, okay, so we have two little black girls, uh, seven-year-old Tamika Turks and her nine-year-old niece. It's funny how that happens. That it happens like that girl when men don't men don't stop fucking after a certain age. So this is how this happens, but her
kris:do you know, take off is Cuevas nephew right in the Migos.
djanai:No,
kris:Yeah, that's it. That's what I immediately thought of. Like, yeah.
djanai:no wait, but isn't what take off looks like he's about 40. How old is he?
kris:He's younger than all than both of them. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
djanai:I mean, music wise, I don't know. Wow. Weird. But anyways, um, so they are walking home. They're walking back from a candy store. When they are approached by a young black woman and a young black man who looked to be in their, you know, twenties, early thirties and, and the man and the woman, they make small talk with the girls and then they tell them that they wanna play in game with them, uh, in the woods. so the girls agreed. They follow the, man of the woman into the woods. And once they're there, uh, the man and the woman remove Tamika, the seven-year-olds, they remove her shirt and they tear it into small strips, which they then use to tie up and gag. Both of these little girls. When Tamika begins to cry, the woman held the girl's nose and mouth closed so that she wouldn't be able to breathe and restraint her while the man stomped on her chest and face. Yeah. Stomped on her face and chest, until he broke her ribs. And they would puncture her internal organs.
kris:Oh, poor baby.
djanai:yeah, awful. Um, after this, they carry to Mika's body, a short distance away and hide her under some bushes. And then Annie, the nine-year-old was forced to perform oral sex on the man. And the woman,
kris:Ugh.
djanai:then the man rapes her. They choke her until she's unconscious. Then they take off, they leave Annie for dead, but she was not dead. She wakes up. in so much pain, she's covered in blood. She has suffered, deep lacerations in her body. They were so severe, so deep that her, her intestines were protruding into her vagina.
kris:Y,
djanai:I've never even heard of that.
kris:no.
djanai:Thankfully, Annie is able to get help and she's taken to a hospital. And miraculously, she survives and she's able to tell authorities what happened to her and Tamika. And on June 19th is the next day police go into the woods and discover Tamika dead body in the bushes. And they find that she has been strangled with an elastic strip of a bedsheet. in the coming days and weeks investigators scrambled to figure out exactly what happened here. First off, who would do this to two innocent little girls, seven and nine years old. Who are these people? Are they brother and sister, are they husband and wife? Like what is going on? Where are they now? Like, where would they, where could these people have gone? So as police uncover more evidence, remember that, that strip from the, the elastic trip that they found well, somehow police were able to trace that strip back to a bedsheet that was traced back to an apartment in Gary Indiana that had been rented to a young black couple, which matches the description.
kris:Wow.
djanai:I don't know how the fuck they did that. I have no idea how they did that shit, but, um, they were able to trace it back to the couple. And this young, black couple would go down in history as, as far as I know the least talked about, but truly the most vicious cold-blooded serial killers in the history of the Midwest. If you asked me.
kris:Woo.
djanai:These these two monsters would go on to commit the craziest crime spree I've and probably you have never heard of which included eight murders, seven rapes, three kidnappings and 14 armed robberies.
kris:That's so that's a very long rap sheet to be going.
djanai:They were diversifying their portfolio. You know, usually people just do one thing or
kris:Yeah, pick a lane, stay in it.
djanai:right.
kris:in it all.
djanai:everything. Um, so this is the story of Alton Coleman and Deborah Brown. Now, have you ever heard of these people? Never. Right. I never heard of it either. I'm surprised. I've never heard of it. but this is a story that needs to be told. So I'm telling it. So let's talk about Deborah Brown. Okay. Let's give a little background. So Debra Denise Brown was born, November 11th, 1962 in Waukegan, Illinois. She is one of 11 children and was raised in what people would call like a stable home with her mother and father. Uh, but when she's very young, she suffers a really bad head injury, like really bad. and so as a result, she's later diagnosed as a borderline intellectually disabled, which this is the sixties. So they definitely use the R word, not going to say that she just, you know, she had a lower IQ. Um, so. that is her diagnosis, but I guess she leads a relatively normal life because by the time our story really picks up in 1983, Debra is 21 years old and she is engaged, which
kris:I know that's right,
djanai:she's engaged. I mean, look, I wasn't, I'm not, I'm like I engage now.
kris:right. Go ahead. Forrest Gump.
djanai:I mean, she knows what love is.
kris:she does. Okay.
djanai:she's about to marry some man. We don't know his name. but then she meets Alton. So normally I wouldn't go this deep into someone's background, but his was kind of interesting. So just bear with me. So Alton Goldman was born on November 6th, 1955. They're both like there. What does that? Early November
kris:Sagittarius right.
djanai:is November 11th. No, I think that's before. Saje what comes before Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries Taurus, Gemini cancer, Leo Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Scorpio, Scorpio. Ooh, Ooh. And score. Scorpios. Love to kill. So they're both Scorpios. Shout out to the Scorpios, I guess don't kill nobody. So. Uh, so he was one of five siblings, um, born in he's born in 1955 in same place. Waukegan, Illinois. And he did not grow up in such a stable home, not as stable as Debra's. So his mother, uh, Mary Bates, she had lived a terrible life from when she was young. So she had her first child at 14.
kris:Common back then, I think. Right,
djanai:So, she has her first child at 14. She had been sent off to an all girls state school, which it sounds like a punishment to me. Um, but later she was sent to a psychiatric hospital, um, for why? Because she had intentionally infected a man with syphilis. On purpose, um, civilization isn't Stu that we don't hear about so much anymore because modern medicine has, uh, you know, has helped us get rid of it with antibiotics in the early stages, but it goes untreated. Um, it can cause you know, it can cause tumors, blindness paralysis, um, it attacks the nervous system. So like it could definitely kill you. Uh, so she did this on purpose, which is, um, rude and then pretty bad. then in 1950, she abandoned her first child moves to Oklahoma and she marries a man and has two more kids. So. Okay. New life in Oklahoma, but I guess abandoning that first kid was so fun that she decided I'm going to do it again. So she abandoned, she abandoned those kids and move us back to our Keegan to live in a brothel. Um, it's a wooden shack among the, uh, the garbage dumps and the junk yards by the railroad tracks. Like not a. Not a good place to live. Uh, and at this time she is doing sex work to support herself and she gets pregnant by one of her Johns. So she has the baby. And then shortly after she has the baby, she takes the baby outside and throws it in the garbage. So literal. Prom night, dumpster, baby. Um, I don't know how long it took, but eventually Mary's mother made her go and dig the baby out of the garbage.
kris:shout out to her mother, I guess. Um,
djanai:Um, should never put a baby in the garbage. It's not right. Uh, w there must not have been any fire stations around, like, just,
kris:Fire stations, hospitals. What's it called? I think nuns will take in babies. Right? If you leave it out like a Catholic
djanai:Yes. Leave, leave in front of some wealthy people's home, you know, like on the doorstep with a note. Right. And Lee, you could do that. Exactly. Didn't the garbage doesn't seem like the right place. It seems a little severe, um, when there's other options, uh, but she does fish the baby out of the garbage, this baby. Would be Alton Coleman. So yeah, basically this is, this is kind of setting the tone
kris:Yeah. This is a villain origin story.
djanai:This is a bit right. Um, so it's at this point that Mary's mother Alma, she's like, um, Um, I think I'm going to take responsibility for this child because clearly Mary's priorities are not where they should be. at this point, Mary is an alcoholic. She's a drug addict, she's a gambler. She's working several jobs, including sex work, which, left him with plenty of time to be exposed to all types of wild shit while they are living in this brothel. So. Like everything from people performing sex acts right in front of him doing drugs right in front of him, you know, it's just not a good place to raise a child. Uh, so, but if there was any child grooming going on at all, it was done by his grandmother. but that doesn't mean that she was perfect or that he would turn out perfect. Because, um, apparently she verbally abused him and called him names a lot. And according to Robert Evans, who was a minister who claims to have known Alton Coleman from, you know, when he was a baby, he was, he basically confirmed that he grew up in a really bad environment with drugs and, sex work and sexual abuse as well. and the minister also says that. I don't know how true this is. He, says that Ultima was involved in like group sex and beastiality with both his mother and his grandmother beastiality is a bit of a stretch. Like, I don't know about that, but I'll know. Um, he also says that. He was forced, from young to participate in a voodoo practices, including dismembering animals and stuff like that. So I, again, this is all hearsay. I don't know, but whatever was going on in that house, it was probably pretty bad because as a child Alton develops in incontinence problem, uh, so. He BP in, um, he wets the bed. He pees on himself at school, like it's bad. And normally, if a child is wetting the bed or, not able to control their bladder like that, it's usually due to some kind of psychological or emotional problem. Maybe like,
kris:That's a warning sign.
djanai:yes. From some kind of traumatic event. Um, a lot of the time it's linked to sexual abuse. uh, so he, there might be some truth to what this man was saying. Um, but he, he makes a habit of peeing on himself. Uh, so, um, so much don't laugh so much, so much so that the kids yeah. Give him a nickname at school. Um, they call him pissy, not the most creative or the cool. Or the coolest nickname
kris:Uh, kids are great. I mean, they're the worst, but like, wow.
djanai:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's they could have tried a little bit harder though. Hm.
kris:Yeah. I mean we like, yeah. Two out of 10 on the creative side.
djanai:P Herman. I like that.
kris:Yeah,
djanai:That's the, that's the one, the first one that came to mind. but, uh, Yeah, so that nickname follows him. For a while, until he drops out of school in the ninth grade. And after that, he works a few odd jobs while simultaneously getting himself in and out of trouble with the law. And, um, actually Kristen it's really too bad that he was a criminal and that he smelled like pee because honestly he was a little bit fine. I'm not, I know it. I never say that, but he, in his mugshot, he looked kinda like Dangelo with like a address for me, texturizer in it. Like, he's he? No, he, it looks exactly like that.
kris:if only he
djanai:you're not only didn't smell like B. So, alton was no stranger to the precinct or jail or getting in trouble with the police, uh, between 1973 and 1983, he would be charged with six. Six different sex crimes in 10 years. That's all.
kris:That's. Yeah, that's he's that's sexual deviant territory.
djanai:He literally can't stop. So it begins as far as we know with Eleanor McEntire. So on December 27th, 1973, he's 18. And this is his first known sexual offense. So Alton, along with an accomplice, they. Somehow procure a gun. And with this gun, they abduct a 54 year old woman named Eleanor MacIntyre. They rape her. They steal her money and her car, but somehow through. Plea negotiations, Alton was only convicted of armed robbery. And so he spent a few years at Juliet penitentiary. He wasn't convicted for the rape, you know, it's, that's weird. So, but then again, it's the seventies, Three years later. It's 1976. He's out on parole. When he rapes 17 year old Sherry Patterson. he was put on trial, but he's found not guilty because he manages to convince the jury that
kris:damn
djanai:which
kris:Um, I mean, I shouldn't be surprised ain't nothing new underneath the sun, especially when it comes to sexual assault survivors. But damn that was she 17. Is that not still illegal? She's a trial. Regardless of it was consensual, but
djanai:it's. The, it goes from different from state to state. So I'm not really sure, but, um, she said no, and she's pressing charges. So that would be enough. But obviously at this time, it's not enough. Um, also while he's in pretrial detention, at Lake County jail for this rape charge, he's also charged with sexually assaulting three fellow male prisoners. So he was gonna get to wherever he
kris:Oh my gosh. Yes.
djanai:He did not discriminate. Um, man woman doesn't matter Childs clearly. Uh, but he was charged but only convicted of battery. Okay. So then in 1980, he is acquitted again on charges of raping a 22 year old woman named Dorothy Hawkins, who was a member of the U S Navy. How the fuck does that happen? He's acquitted though. Uh, in 1981, he's involved in the sexual assault of, a child, a girl, child. And, he may have raped a 14 year old, uh, the, the, the friend of the girl, but either way, the case was dismissed because of a lack of probable cause. Now tell me, Kristin, what is probable cause for sexual assault?
kris:Yes, one, two, could they not have looked up all of his other
djanai:Other repeat offender
kris:Clearly he has a problem. So now I don't get it either.
djanai:once you won. I don't get what the fuck it's one-to-one, offenses at this point. Why, why where's the rap sheet on this motherfucker? But he gets off. I mean, he gets off, that's a poor choice of words. Uh Then in 1982 he's a suspect in the rape murder murder of a 15 year old girl. We don't have her name. I don't have, and I also don't have any information on like what happened. He's a suspect though. Not, you know, he wasn't arrested or anything. Um, then in July, 1983, he is charged. With molesting his own eight year old niece, eight years old. Her name was Melinda snow. Melinda snow's mother Alden's half sister Terry Coleman. She's the one who pressed charges. But again, this case is dismissed. Because of, insufficient evidence, lack of evidence.
kris:Um, I'm not understanding,
djanai:I
kris:doing it guys. Like clearly he's not stopping it.
djanai:And then on February 28th, 1984 in North Chicago, Coleman raped. A 14 year old girl named Shalonda Thompson at knife point. And this time he is, he is scheduled to go on trial and he seems like he's going to go through with the court proceedings. But I guess he changed his mind. He was like, you know what, I'm tired of this song and dance. And at this point he'd already met Deborah Brown and I'm not sure because they met in 1983. I'm not sure of the nature of their relationship. Exactly. Like I read she was taking care of his grandmother. I don't know how true that is. but they meet, she was engaged, but when she meets him shortly after that, she breaks off her engagement with demand that she was supposed to marry and decides to move in with Coleman or like, you know, they're hanging out more or whatever. And it's at this point when he's. Like about to have to go to trial for this rape charge of Shalonda Thompson that he and Deborah decide to take off and begin their reign of terror. Well, well, cause she didn't have, she didn't have any prior history of like violence or crime before this one. So, um, Their crimes begin in may of 1984, when Coleman, meets this woman named Juanita wheat. she lived in Kenosha, Wisconsin. And she was the mother of a nine-year-old named Bernita. And on May 29th, 1984 for Nita wheat goes missing. Two days later on May 31st, 1984 Coleman. He meets another guy, befriends him, a guy named Robert Carpenter still in, we Keegan Illinois, and he spends the night at his home, which maybe this was the thing in the seventies. Like, Hey, I'm a stranger. Can I sleep on your couch? I don't, I
kris:Yeah, I don't subscribe to
djanai:Kindness. Yeah. This is not a bed and breakfast. Okay. and also why the fuck you need to sleep at my house. Don't you live here?
kris:Right,
djanai:live here. But this guy is nice. The next day he asks Robert to borrow his car, to go to the store, but Alton does not return the car that day. Um, or the next day or the
kris:All right.
djanai:He has stolen this man's car. Um, he's taken off. At the same time, Vanita is still missing and she stays missing for about three weeks until June 19th, 1984, when her body was found in an abandoned building, only four blocks away from Coleman's grandmother's apartment. And at this point it's summertime in Chicago. So her body was very badly decomposed. but they were still able to rule the cause of death as ligature strangulation. So if y'all will not familiar, ligature, strangulation is when someone, takes, some, some kind of string or rope or something, wraps it around someone's neck and, you know, holds it until they die. So. She wasn't bound for three more weeks and in that time, Alton and Deborah were keeping very busy. This is similar to the, uh, Charles. Um, Starkweather and Carolyn few Gates story where they've got a car and, um, a will to kill, and they just keep going from one thing to the next. So try, try to like follow me. The timeline can get a little confusing. I'm doing it based on when it's estimated that the events took place. If I fuck it up, my bad is a lot of information, but they were like
kris:Yeah. Yeah.
djanai:So in the store with Tamika Turks and any Hillard on June 18th. So this is the second crime that we know of that Alton and Debra committed together. let's go to June, 1984. We're in Detroit, Michigan. the day that Tamika, his body was found June 19th. Coleman had befriended another woman, Donna Williams. She's 25 years old. She's from Gary Indiana. And on July 11th, 1984 William's body, which had been again badly decomposed, was discovered in Detroit, Michigan, about a half mile away from where her car was found. So the cause of death here again was ligature strangulation. So same memo. Um, but let's back it on up a little bit, June 28th. So this is before this is after Coleman meets Donna, but before. Police would find her body. This is June 28th, 1984 Alton in Deborah. They enter the home of Mr. Mrs. Palmer Jones of Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Now I read that Alton was a smooth talker.
kris:Okay, that was gonna be my first question. He's getting so many people to trust him that he must be, he must have, um, like he's very much high functioning socially
djanai:Very high functioning, so he would get people to let their guards down by seeming to be like a genuinely nice guy that was look, always looking to do something, looking to buy a car, looking for a job, helping a woman, with her laundry, uh, you know, he's Expressing genuine concern for, people or an interest in what they're interested in, especially religion. Also they would go by different aliases when they would meet new people too. They had a long list of aliases, so they, um, they enter the Jones's home in Michigan and Alton handcuffs. Uh, Mr. Palmer, And beats him really badly. Mrs. Jones was also attached. She was beat up pretty badly, thankfully Alton and Debra leave them alive. But Coleman, before he leaves Coleman yanked the phone from the wall, like out of their wall, where you gonna do with it. I mean, I guess he's going to pawn it or something stole money from them, stole their car. They'd take off.
kris:Hm.
djanai:Now we're moving into July. We're in Toledo, Ohio and Alton and Deborah. they befriend a woman named Virginia temple. Um, she's a mother. She has several children. Her oldest child is a nine year old girl named Rochelle. not long after Alton in Deborah, meet Virginia. Virginia's relative stop hearing from her. She goes quiet for awhile and her family becomes concerned about the children. So they stopped by for a wellness check upon entering the home. They find. Her youngest children they're alone. They're scared the family members they're looking around, you know, for any clues about what could have happened. Eventually they find Virginia and Michelle's deceased bodies. They're they're in a crawlspace. Um, it's later determined that Rachelle had been sexually assaulted. Um, They couldn't determine if Virginia had been sexually assaulted, because again, it is summertime, the bodies are decomposing at a rate that's much higher, so they can't really tell these things. But, um, it is determined that, uh, the cause of death was ligature strangulation. So, and it also appeared that they had been like robbed that it was noted that a bracelet that belonged to Virginia temple was missing from the home. Uh, it's later determined that Alton in Deborah killed Virginia and Rochelle on July 7th. And on that same morning, Alton and Deborah entered the home of Frank and Dorothy Dubin. DEC, I hope I'm saying their names, right? Uh, this was an old black couple. They were like in their seventies. Alton ties the couple up with, uh, electric cords that they had cut, um, robbed them. They take money, they steal their car. but they leave them alive.
kris:thanks. I guess, at this point have any of these deaths in these different States, have they been connected at all? Or they just think they're isolated.
djanai:so they're crossing state lines. So the police that are looking into this, they're not talking to each other. but for the ones where they they're starting to see a pattern like these last two, take place in Ohio so people can start to connect the dots. Um, but yeah, they take the Dubin Dax car leave later that same day Alton and Deborah drive to, Dayton, Ohio. And at this point, child, you know what just scream when you hear your city, because they,
kris:You're on a world tour. What the hell?
djanai:they're everywhere. and I'm thinking like, this is the eighties. They knew the fucking roads. Like later, it will be determined. Like they both had low IQs and stuff like that, but I'm like, I mean, they could read a map, they can pull the fuck out of a map. I couldn't go on a killing spree in the 1980s. If I wanted to, I
kris:no exactly. With the GPS. No.
djanai:No, no. I would get caught immediately. So, so they, they knew the fuck out of them roads. but when they get to Dayton, they go to the home of Reverend and Mrs. Millard gay, they stayed with them in Dayton for a little bit. They went with them to lock what Ohio, on July 9th to our religious service. They're really playing this up. Like,
kris:Oh, yeah. We just want to become closer to God.
djanai:Right. on July 10th, the gaze dropped off, um, the gaze, the gaze drop off, Debra and Alton in downtown Cincinnati. Um, and they wouldn't see them again for a week. And. As we've seen a lot of bad shit can go down in a week when it comes to these two. So we're in Cincinnati, it's July 12th and 15 year old, Tony story was reported missing by her parents. Now she was last seen the day before. And a witness says that they saw her in the company of, a black man and a black woman. So of course, the witness later identified the man that she was with as Alton Coleman a week later on July 19th, the badly decomposed body of Tony story was discovered in a vacant apartment building on may street. Um, she was nearly nude. She'd been strangled
kris:I know a baby.
djanai:Um, they found her and above her body, um, scratched into the wall and outlined with lipstick above her was a message and it read. And I quote, I hate niggers with a hard ER, period death, which was this supposed to throw people off?
kris:I think what they're trying to do, like on some like white power shit, you know, painting and like, look what BLM did. And it's like,
djanai:I live with me. This is when black lives matter protests were going on and white people were spray painting. Blacks would rule on there
kris:so we have you on camera.
djanai:on your fucking camera on your ring.
kris:Oh,
djanai:on your neighbor's ring, we saw you and some of them were too positive. Even like you spray paint, they use chocolate. I'm like, bout it, bout it. You go, what the fuck? So, um, this is fooling no one. She had been strangled just like the other victim. So, same emo and because of the state of decomposition, they were not able to determine if, Tony was raped or not. but forensic evidence along with, remember that bracelet, Virginia temples bracelet, they found the bracelet, next to her body or underneath her body. so that definitely pointed to Alton and Deborah. Okay. So we're back in the car. We actually, no, we're not back in the car. We are back on bikes. Somehow these motherfuckers, these motherfuckers got bikes,
kris:Oh, it's not funny, but it is
djanai:They use based cycle. Okay, too. Norwood, Ohio, which I looked it up. It's four 40 minutes away by bike from Cincinnati.
kris:And not one person called the police
djanai:gonna?
kris:minutes up the road
djanai:They're like, Oh no, no, because it's just like, honestly, if you out here killing, why are you on a bike?
kris:It does throw the people off because.
djanai:They're expecting a car they're expecting like, Oh, you're trying to get away fast. And they're like, no, we're going nowhere fast. And we're sweating. It's the middle of July. these motherfuckers are on bikes. So they, ride these bikes to the home of Harry and Marlene Walter's. Okay. So they already white couple new. We're switching, we're switching it up, um, in their mid forties. So Alton in Deborah, they managed to enter the home of, Mr and Mrs. Walters at around 9:30 AM, which means they had to be up early on them bikes. because, Alton says that he is interested in purchasing a camper, I think, as like a, is that like a convi, like from the wild blueberries? I don't know what the fuck that is.
kris:um, like, uh, you know, like RV campers, what you. Hookup to the back. That is like an RV on the inside. Just not a full RV.
djanai:How do you know that?
kris:It's a camper. No, my dad does really want to RV though. When he retires.
djanai:Jesus Christ. Um, who had, who's going to, what do you do with the P.
kris:you have to like dump, you have to, there's like a valve and you like. Untwist it and then like hook it up to a thing. And then it drains from out of there.
djanai:That's, that's the biggest turnoff to me when it comes to like these tiny homes and these, uh, uh, Mike, what w what is going to happen with the Dooky? Cause I'm not fucking. I never want, once it's out. I never want to see it again. Like I don't want to,
kris:Handle that I'm not about to handle my feces. Yeah.
djanai:relive that shit. but yeah, I guess it wouldn't have been a problem for him anyway. He's like at this point, how do we know he's not still pissing on himself, but anyways, he says he's interested in purchasing the camper, that they're selling at the time. So Mrs. Walters, she's home. Harry Walters, he's sitting on the couch, he and ultimate discussing, the process of selling the camper to him and Alton, he picks up a wooden candlestick that is in the room and he's looking at it and he's admiring it. And, uh, then he hits. Harry Walters on the back of the head with this candlestick, which I have to assume is one of those like brawling ass for you to like, say like, Oh, look at this. It must've been big as fuck. Um, and so based on the description, it seemed like it was big. Uh, the sheer force of this blow broke the candlestick. This big ass candlestick and drove a chunk of bone against Mr. Walter's brain. And so
kris:Yeah, he's done
djanai:and then Sherry Walters, Harry and Marlene's daughter, she comes home from work around 3:45 PM that afternoon. And at the bottom of the basement steps of the home, she finds her father. And then she found her mother dead, both had ligatures around their throats. Uh, electric cords had been tied around their feet. Her mother's hands were bound behind her back and her father's hands were handcuffed behind his back. Where the fuck did they get handcuffs? I don't know. Uh, her mother's head was covered with like a bloody sheet. The coroner indicated that Marlene Walters had been struck on the head somewhere between 20 and 25 times.
kris:Yeah. That's a lot of striking
djanai:to hit somebody. You don't even know. Like that seems like that seems personal. Um, there were 12 lacerations, some of which were, um, made with a pair of vice grips. they were all over her face and her scalp, the back of her skull had been smashed to pieces, just parts of her skull and her brain were missing. It was awful.
kris:that
djanai:really brutal. Exactly. the living room hallway and the basement covered in blood. There were fragments of, uh, a broken soda bottle that had Alton's fingerprints on it that was found in the living room. There were strands of Marlene Walters hair. Um, you know, just, it was, it was a massacre, they found blade footprints with two different kinds of shoes. These were found in the basement. These motherfuckers were messy. Um, the family car was a red Plymouth reliant that was gone. Money, jewelry, shoes gone. What did they leave them? Fuck it. Bikes. They left the bikes. uh, clothes and their shoes behind which.
kris:Yeah. Yeah. You see, they're not even thinking, they're not thinking any of this
djanai:No through no. Um, but they also left behind something very important. They thankfully miraculously left Harry Walters alive. So he was able to tell authorities what happened to him because. Candlestick. Yes. Yeah. So he survived that blow and he was able to go to the police. I mean, get some medical attention of course, but then go to the police and tell them exactly what happened. And then of course later testify against them. So, uh, two days later they find the red Plymouth, abandoned in Kentucky. Again, can tacky. They were going everywhere, fast like this. This is the, this is the opposite of the, the Starkweather few Gates story because they were flooring it. so now it's July 16th and, Alton and Debra and an accomplished. Who the fuck is exactly this man named Thomas Harris. They managed to kidnap a 33 year old man named old O-line Olean. I don't know how to say this man's name online. I want to say Carmichael Jr. From a motel parking lot. They take them well, then they call his wife and they demand a ransom. They call her. They say like, we gotta be your husband show up here with the money. These motherfuckers never even fucking show up to get the money. So she showed up with the money and she was like, where's my husband. And they were like, like they had, they had no got him. And instead of meeting up and getting the fucking money and returning this man, they instead drove back to Dayton, Ohio with Olin Carmichael locked in the trunk of his own fucking car. the next day on July 17th they abandoned this, this car with Carmichael's still inside. Uh, but eventually he would be rescued by authorities. Thank God. Like if you would have died in there, that would have been so horrific, but they found him, you know, but the fact that they decided to drive back to Dayton, this was expected because at this point, the FBI is on their ass. Yeah. So their work. Oh, yeah. They had expected that they would go back to their comfort zone when they run out of money. When they run out of people that they can be friend. Right. Um, they will go back to their comfort zone and for them, their comfort zone with back at Reverend Gay's house in Dayton, Ohio, uh, but by the time they get back, they're Reverend gay. He he's, you know, he watches the news. Uh, he recognized Alton who at this point is the subject of a huge nationwide manhunt, by July 12th, the FBI had added him to its 10 most wanted list as a special edition So, they're looking for him. And I'm pretty sure at this point, Alton knew that people were looking for him because when he ends up her show up on July 17th, this time, there is no smooth talking. he threatens Reverend gay and his wife with guns, ultimate pistol whips. And by the way, Reverend gay is a 79 year old man, which is.
kris:Like, what was he
djanai:is somebody, this is a grandpa,
kris:tie his old ass hands up and sit him on the couch and go on your right. Go on your Merry way. Like
djanai:We going to keep killing pawpaw. We gonna stay here, but you know what? They leave him alive. But Alton Debra, they do steal their car and they have back to Evanston, Illinois, which. Was expected. The FBI knew that they were going to go back to Evanston. On the way back home, I guess, they figure why not steal another car. So they steal another car from another old man on July 19th, the lifeless body of Eugene Scott. 79 year old man was found in a ditch outside of Indianapolis. He had been shot and stabbed repeatedly. And I mean that it's awful, awful way to go. Thankfully, this would be the last car they steal
kris:amen.
djanai:So a day later on July 20th, 1984, they are in Evanston, Illinois. And, someone from Alton's old neighborhood, he had pulled up the tour red light. he just in his car waiting for the light to change, and then he sees Alton and Deborah. Just cross the street in front of his car. Just real cash.
kris:big Tillman. Not a care in the world.
djanai:exactly. this man, he wasn't a friend of Alton's he, didn't know him like that. He just knew him casually, but he did recognize him. So as Alton and Deborah are walking across the street, he makes note of which direction they're heading. He pulls into a gas station. He took calls the police like. Exactly. So, um, he tells the police what they were wearing, what direction they were heading. The information is dispatched a description of the two, our broadcast, and, uh, as officers pull into the area where they were heading, a detective saw Alton and Debra sitting on some bleachers in the park, it said that they were watching like a baseball game or a basketball game or something like that. Again, big chilling, but. Noted that what they were wearing did not match the description. They were just given a couple of minutes ago. They observe that Deborah is walking away from Alton, toward the rear of the park. So then the detectives, approach Alton and they're asking him some questions and two more officers, they stopped Deborah while she's, trying to leave the park. they search them. They find a gun in her purse. Um, Alton had no ID on him. They asked him like, are you Alton Coleman? He said, who? That's not me. her. but both Alton and Deborah, they're taken to police custody without incident but they do assert that they have the wrong people. Like I'm not this person. They are transported to the police department where they were both identified correctly by their fingerprints, which they
kris:Right, right.
djanai:and in the police station, Alton, he stripped searched and they find a steak knife, between two pairs of sweat socks that he's wearing. they also find a shopping bag full of different t-shirts and, like caps. So they find out that these two would walk like two or three blocks and then switch shirts so that nobody could that's a lot of them as,
kris:intelligence a okay.
djanai:mean, I would have never. Ever thought of that. You want to commit it? Just switch wigs and outfits every couple blocks. I mean,
kris:That is commit mints.
djanai:really is just carrying shirts. not a bad idea, but they were caught. A week after they are arrested more than 50 law enforcement officials from all the States that they did, their tour, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio. States where I'm pretty sure everything they stole was going to gas. It had to like, it had to be gas money. So they meet to plan their strategy for prosecuting Alton in Deborah to the very fullest extent of the law. Okay. If they wanted the death penalty, they would need to strategize because like, for example, Michigan, it didn't have the death penalty. So they were like, let's not do that one. so. Ohio was the girl. They were like, there's the death penalty there. we're going to start with Ohio. So that's what they did. Normally, I would give like a detailed account of the court proceedings, but this has already gone on for eight hours. So I'm going to keep it short. Coleman was tried in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Four times one for the murder of Marlene Walters in may of 1985, one for the murder of Tony story in June of 1985, one for the murder of Tamika Turks in April of 1986, one for the kidnapping and murder of Ranita wheat, in February, 1987. I don't hear shit about rate, but, uh, you know what,
kris:I was about to say, are we just going to forget about him
djanai:the serial rapist? Uh, but I guess they're like, you know what murder is like the big fish, so. During the course of his Ohio and Illinois trials, Coleman, in classic psychopath, fashion acted as his own lawyer,
kris:Oh, they love to do that, sweetie.
djanai:they think he, yeah. To, to be, what is that like? Why, but they think they're so much smarter than everybody. I don't know what the fuck their problem is, but it's just
kris:Some narcissistic, like. Very very outlandish behavior.
djanai:God. so he acted as, his own lawyer and even got to the point of calling Deborah who was tried separately as a rebuttal witness. he personally cross examined her. The, audacity, like the pure arrogance and cockiness is astounding. What he does this in an attempt to make it look like she had in fact murdered Marlene Walters and not him now, needless to say, does it not work? Um, no one believed him when it comes to Deborah. she was tried separately and they had psychologists trying to figure out like, you know, how, how they should approach this, this trial with her because, it was the psychologist expert opinion that Brown had suffered from borderline. Intellectual. Disability depression and had what was diagnosed as a dependent personality or a passive dependent personality. So basically they were trying to say, she was just like, she just followed whatever he said, like she did. She did not like she wasn't thinking she And also they said that at the time that she was being tried, her IQ was 74. Okay. 74. That's really just so y'all know that's low, that's bad. Like I think they said the average IQ for an adult person should be like a hundred. So 74 is, um, not good. It's in the, it's in the double digits. It's not great. So they're trying to say like, you know what her IQ was so low. He, you know, he was definitely the mastermind behind this whole thing. She was just following after him. They're saying this is a deeply troubled individual. and maybe she should not be Tried As severely as Alton was, but in the end, um, nobody cared because, uh, during the sentencing phase of the trial, Debra, um, wrote a note to the judge, a little note and the note read, I killed the bitch and I don't give a damn I had fun of it. End quote. help.
kris:I can see why.
djanai:this was not going to work in her favor. So on her own part, Deborah, received two death sentences in Ohio and in Indiana for her role in the Walters and torques murders in 1989, her Ohio death sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. due to her diagnosed intellectual disability. In 1991, her Indiana sentence was similarly commuted to six years. So a total of 140 years of imprisonment she's going to die before then it doesn't really matter. Both were sentenced to 20 years for the. Kidnapping of, O-line Carmichael in the end Alton Coleman was executed by lethal injection on April 22nd, 2002 at Southern Ohio correctional facility in Lucasville.
kris:piss, uh,
djanai:is the name of this episode?
kris:you know, I have my own ideas about the death penalty, but, you know, it's people like him that makes you pause and you're like, well, maybe your life maybe don't matter.
djanai:you, it don't it don't. so Deborah is still alive. according to what I read, she is currently incarcerated at Dayton correctional institution. she in 2005, she. Expressed remorse for his and her crimes, um, to the victim's families because this, the trial and shit like it, it went on for a long time. He wasn't, he wasn't killed until 2002. So it took a long time. Her, I don't have anything to say. She's spending her life, um, riding in prison and that's where she deserves to be.
kris:That's true. And I mean, we know her IQ is very low, but yeah. A three-year-old can tell you don't kill people like, you know, right from wrong,
djanai:Right. I mean, maybe not fully to that, extent, but, she's a danger to herself and other people
kris:Yeah.
djanai:she should have just married that first man, maybe as what? Right. I mean, he probably still would have been doing stuff, but. Like it's, it's just fucked up that he had a real ride or die accomplish because this woman was just following behind him, which was really fucked up. But, um, Yeah, their Mo is just really crazy. And it's, it's scary to me because so Allison called me, he was obviously a serial rapist, but he, it was his approach. Like he would lore or, or approach his victims with some kind of, some kind of ruse. And, and uh, most of the time he, it was about like befriending the mothers of his victims because they were oftentimes children. Most of the time, children. So he would either, do some kind of rules or if there was no, parent around, he would just go straight into an attack. and it's crazy that like, during the course of this crime spree, he would. Just be friends, people like, and usually like these aren't just regular people. This isn't just Joe Schmoe, a Reverend. Um, these elderly couples, but then, and in time he would gain their trust, tie them up, gag them, beat them either, to death or just to the point where they're just really fucked up. And most of his, victims, it seems like they were attacked because they needed something like they needed to obtain money. They needed to get a car so they could, you know, move from place to place. and when it came to like the rape victims, usually. it was just the same emo, rape them, and use some kind of ligature to strangle them to death. But when they found, when I read up the part about the gun, I was like, wait, I mean, they weren't using guns for the most part, but they did. Um,
kris:Keep one on them.
djanai:Exactly. Exactly. And I was thinking, it just seemed like, so in the moment, You know, with the, with the bed sheet and tearing up the girls shirt and stuff like that, it just seemed like, did they decide this on a whim? Like, let's get that, like that one, like it had to be just, something came over him and he was like, I feel like killing him right now because go to the store and get some rope, you know, some gloves or something. But yeah, I guess maybe
kris:Maybe that was the thrill of it. Like not knowing someone they're encountering will be a victim or not, but it's always a possibility like, Hey, if I give you the signal, this is telling me yeah. Um, wow. This was absolutely bananas.
djanai:Uh huh. Yeah. I mean, I chose this one because. I've never heard of these two and you know how normally, couples who killed, they usually have some kind of nickname. They're infamous. They have some kind of nickname. There's the Ken Barbie and Ken killers. Uh, B Bonnie and Clyde. That's San Francisco, which murders the other ones. And like, they don't really have a name, so I'm ready to give them one.
kris:so good. So good. Yeah, really, really great. Uh, no, watch it stick. I like it now. Oh, I get pissy and sissy. Okay.
djanai:Yeah.
kris:ring to it.
djanai:I mean sounds maybe too cutesy for them, because for all of the awful things that they did, but yeah, I feel like I couldn't believe that I never heard of this shit. Um, and I really, I really don't have anything to say about this, honestly, except. I feel like they got away with so much of this because their first murders were all black women on black people, young, a lot of young black girls. And the fact that he had six, he got in trouble six times. He'd been charged six times before he even met Deborah before he went From sexual assault to full-blown cross Stateline murder, like he had another person. So, it's one thing to be wary of like a, like a creepy man, but her being there, a woman or a little, girl's going to feel at peace because they're going to see a young woman and be like, Oh, you know, he must not be bad
kris:I bet she was nice and charming too. And did her duties to lure them in.
djanai:Right.
kris:a
djanai:I think she was able to like elevate what he was doing, because I think that there was just another layer of trust because there's a woman there.
kris:Right. Something clicked or snapped.
djanai:right.
kris:Um, or maybe it was always there and he never acted on it, but then he
djanai:think it was.
kris:taste and was like, Oh yeah, I like this.
djanai:Yeah. I think it was definitely always there, but he just didn't have, he didn't, he couldn't gain trust the way he would. He could with a woman being next to him because as a child. If you see a woman. Who looks like your mom or your sister, man and be like, Oh yeah, I can trust these people. I really think that she, she, she was like a big reason why he was able to do what he did.
kris:absolutely. Do you think they killed more than eight people. Like, do you think there's more bodies out there that maybe just went okay. Yeah,
djanai:I do. Um, I think there's more because it was just, they, they were on a rampage. They, they really were on a rampage. I just want to highlight that all of these murders took place two months from may to July of 1984, eight murders.
kris:Entirely too long,
djanai:Uh,
kris:uh, for them to be out here,
djanai:but it's such a short amount of time to do so much damage, you know, like it was, it was, they were really like back to back,
kris:Right impulsive. That's the word? I was like, it just seems like it was just like that. I get this big sin.
djanai:Right, exactly. Um, And it's crazy to me that the only white. People that they killed, they had so much evidence. They had so much, you notice that like they were fingerprints here and this is here, that
kris:And
djanai:a full description. They told like a full story of like, what was found in that house where, whereas I really didn't. I feel like when I was looking this up, I didn't get that many details. as far as like what the crime scene was and I'm like, were they just saying like, Oh, well, it's, it's just a of little black girls and, uh,
kris:Right. And if they were found nude, A lot of times, unfortunately detectives will go straight to, Oh, they're they're night walkers they're hookers or drug deal gone bad or meet up with, uh, John gone bad. So, you know, it
djanai:that's true. That's true. Oh yeah. And then around this time, when teenagers or young kids would go missing or stuff like that, that'd be like, Oh, they're just blowing off steam. She
kris:right,
djanai:Where is she going? What steam?
kris:Has she run away before she's eight years old? So no. Um, and she can't get very far because she's eight years old. The most she could probably do is catch the bus. And even then you gotta change.
djanai:And she's again, eight years old. So they would put a lot of that shit on the kids. Like, Oh, maybe she just ran away, you know, blame it on the homes. They're like, Oh yeah, maybe you weren't feeding her. And she ran away. It's lots of racism. Lots of bullshit. But yeah, I mean, almost all the victims were black. and, the police would be like, Oh, they did that because they would be able to blend in better with the black community and stuff like that. Cause they just like who, who would a suspect? A young, black couple of doing this?
kris:No, not at all.
kristen:So as a profiler, if I'm building out this unsub, I feel as though he was probably murdering a lot of women who resembled or look like or reminded him of his mother, I think that's where a lot of the source of his. Anger and hatred towards women, especially black women. Cause clearly you had a hatred for black women, um, was stemming from
D'janai:I agree. I didn't even think about that when I was writing this up, but that makes total sense. He's still mad at her for the
kristen:yeah,
D'janai:He's still pissed. He's still thinking about like, why did you do me away? I'll throw you away, targeting young, black women at that too. he may have been targeting young black women for a number of reasons, but maybe even going back to like, when he was getting teased, maybe little black girl was calling him pissy.
kristen:right,
D'janai:And that shit, really, that shit resonated. And he was like, I'll show you or someone who looks like you. this seemed like it was just like a trauma response. Like maybe every time you saw like a young girl, he was like, I need to, do something. I think it was absolutely a trauma response to his upbringing with his mother and his upbringing. while he was in school getting teased and shit. I mean, kids really aren't shit.
kristen:no. And then add on top of that. He was very young when he was first introduced to sex. I don't think he had a healthy relationship with sex. I E Y he's a literal rapist. So being exposed that young to God knows what, um, yeah. Doomed from the start. Well, who was the other guy you did in Cleveland? Michael Madison,
Track 1:Michael Madison. Yes. Yes. These are classic. I was hurt. I was traumatized. I'm gonna hurt and traumatize other people, and kill them.
D'janai:Like I just find it to be so crazy though. It took them so long to find him out. Yes. He was moving kind of quickly and he was bouncing one place to another, but I feel like if he was targeting low white girls,
kristen:A different, yeah. A different demographic. Absolutely.
D'janai:I think so. I think if it was, um, a different demographic that he definitely, they would have caught him much, much faster. Um, but for a number of reasons, right. Not just because of racism, but also because he would have stuck out like a sore thumb in these
kristen:In the, exactly. Yeah.
D'janai:and I'm like, Oh yeah, I saw a little white girl talking to,
kristen:A black man.
D'janai:Right. And to even have access to, these white people, he, he would stick out a sore thumb in a fucking Macy's anywhere.
kristen:Yeah.
D'janai:if you're on that side of town, people are going to be like, yeah, I saw a young black gentleman and he looked like D'Angelo and he was walking all over you.
kristen:yeah.
D'janai:They would just pull you into jail. You could be sitting there eating a fucking sandwich. So there's like, you know what? You suspicious.
kristen:Right.
D'janai:Um, so especially if he, you know, had fucking, butcher knives in his socks and, you know, 18 t-shirts in his back pocket, they would have been like, okay, you you're going to jail just off a suspicion alone would
kristen:don't know what you did, but we know you're doing something you're not supposed to be
D'janai:You're black. That's enough for us
kristen:You're out.
D'janai:But they were really dumb and messy the whole time. They were good at some things like the t-shirts shit was not bad. And the ability to read a map, I mean, got to give it to
kristen:right. A plus plus
D'janai:but the fingerprints everywhere, the footprints, I mean, but the excellent police work. No
kristen:the black bicycle said now, why am I in it? Because.
D'janai:seriously. I'm
kristen:chilling on up on this wall. Now I'm an accomplice, the getaway core, like
D'janai:I think this is our first bike getaway. I think this is the, I hopefully lasts because it doesn't, but it's, it's good and bad because to me I'm like, you are not, you, you're not going anywhere fast, but at the same time, the last thing they would expect for your stupid ass to be on is a
kristen:A bicycle white,
D'janai:They would not. You committed murders and you,
kristen:Not a train, not the bus
D'janai:Bicycle with the fucking, with the bag full of t-shirts in the front basket and a little bell of a card. In the, uh, pinwheel to the fucking wheel. Like you're just, you guys are just often style what the fuck. But that, those two things I'm going to I'll give it to not, not bad ideas, but they were very messy leaving their fingerprints everywhere. Although, I mean, you pawned off that phone. You couldn't have bought like some gloves or something, but let me not tell people how to, how to get away with it. Cause I'm glad they got caught. I wish they would've got caught sooner and really, I don't think these people had any way of knowing, like when he was in and out of prison, maybe they didn't predict that he would murder, but isn't it in the cards like,
kristen:It's written in the stars.
D'janai:like once, once, twice, three times, six times you are a danger, you are a menace to society. You need to go to jail and stay there.
kristen:This is not you being drunk and like paying in a park and a cop pulls up and is like, Hey, what are you doing? Or like a peeping Tom, equally as creepy, but like
D'janai:it's bad. And it's a
kristen:rate charges, like.
D'janai:six rape charges, all like most under age girls or young women and nothing. Nothing. No, like real time was spent in jail. And of course jail for sexual assault. I there's a whole conversation about rehabilitation and stuff like that. But personally, if you are doing sexual assaults, I don't think there's any rehabilitation for you. And I've said that before, like if you killed once, there's a chance that you might not kill again. It's a terrible thing to do. And maybe like, you don't know what the circumstances are. I think maybe for murder it can be different depending on the circumstances. Sexual assault though, As long as those are your sexual urges and they are as heinous and discussing is that I think there was not a chance you need to be chemically castrated. I don't understand why that is not. If you, if you go to jail for rape. You should be chemically castrated. Okay. That's it. You don't know what to do with it. No more.
kristen:to me. Yeah.
D'janai:Hmm. Oh, wait. Well, hold on. My concern would be that if people, if men knew that the punishment for a rape charge was chemical castration, they might say like, okay, I just won't get caught. I'll kill you.
kristen:Great. Okay. Cause you know, their minds go way left real
D'janai:not going to go. It's not going to say don't
kristen:Don't don't do it
D'janai:No, it's going to say don't rape and get caught.
kristen:right.
D'janai:Make sure no one can tell on you. And if there was no victim, there is no witness. So I don't know how I feel about that anymore, but I think that chemical castration should be considered, especially when you have a serial offender like this, because if they would've stopped him before 1983, before he met Deborah, maybe there's a chance. That he could have been behind bars and not on the streets. And she would have just married that man. And we, I wouldn't have done this episode because there'd be nothing to fucking tell but, I think this is like you said, it's a classic hurt. People, hurt people and taking out the traumas on other people, reliving the experience through one lens or another, and it seemed like he just wanted to be on the power. Yeah. And
kristen:absolutely.
D'janai:who's pissy now,
kristen:I mean, so you pissed when they injected that shit in your arm.
D'janai:Exactly. Exactly. Oh,
djanai:So, um, Rest in peace to all of their victims. Rest in peace to Vanita wheat. She was nine Tamika Turks. She was seven Donna Williams. She was 25 Virginia temple. And her daughter, Rochelle, who was nine Tony story, who was 15 Marlene waters, who was 44 and Eugene Scott. Who was 77 and rest in piss
kris:PIs.
djanai:piss and Dukie too.
kris:Mm.
djanai:And Dukie. to Alton Coleman. I hope he is rotting rotting in hell.
kris:Absolutely.
djanai:he was an absolute monster and a terror. These are all almost all young black women cut down in the prime of their fucking life.
kris:Right
djanai:Like
kris:left like trash.
djanai:Left for dead. Shit is insane. and you know what, Debra,
kris:I listen, birds of a feather flock together. So I understand maybe, uh, I didn't know what I was doing. I'm so influenced. Okay. Well, eight people are still there.
djanai:Right. So you have to pay for your city sentence
kris:Yeah.
djanai:Yeah. So that is the story of Alton Coleman and Debra Denise Brown, AKA pissy and sissy. Pissy sissy. My guess she, I don't know.
kris:Oh, good job, DJ. That was a doozy. So Sam, I'm glad you told the story though.
djanai:Yeah, that was a long one. That was a lot. Uh, what is your so high for the week?
kris:my, so hi is um, the renin Williams is playing in the Australian open. So
djanai:Oh, yeah. That picture of Beyonce. Yeah. Um, I don't understand tennis, but I do love Serena Williams. Okay. Um, my so high this week is that I found a, like all natural marketplace, uh, for black owned brands for like, uh, beauty products and shit. Yeah. It is called, I believe it's pronounced black and green, but it's spelled B L K, and then a plus symbol, G R N. Um, but they have like lots of different skincare things. I know that everybody is really into skincare right now for some reason. They have, bath and body stuff and skincare. They have makeup, they have hair stuff. They also have stuff for like the home too. Um, they have some groceries, they have multivitamins and all types of like wellness and haircare products on there. And they're all black owned. They're all. Non-toxic, so it seems like a really reputable place to find some, all natural products for your home that happened to be Black owned, which I thought was cool. So I'm definitely going to check them out to get some, butters and shit.
kris:Very nice.
djanai:Um, okay. Well, we hope you guys check that out too. We hope you enjoyed this episode, of quiet as it's kept the podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode. Christine's going to go tell it on the mountain Um, um, you can follow us on Instagram at quiet as it's kept podcast and on Twitter, we're at quake the pod, Q a I K the pod and. Our site is still up. If you still haven't gotten your mug yet or seen just what the website looks like, feel free to go on over there at quiet as it's kept podcast.com. um, all right. Y'all that's it. You guys have a great week, happy. Valentine's day. We love you the most happy balance. I never can say. Okay. Tell me if I'm the only one. Whenever you go to St. Valentine's day, do you almost say Thanksgiving? You're going to be, I thought you were going to say yes, but that I'm not the only person. I'm not the only one. I know. I've talked to somebody about that before, and it's just like, sometimes when you want to say Thanksgiving, you say Valentine's day. And when we want to say Valentine's day, you say Thanksgiving y'all if I'm fucking, all right. If I'm crazy.
kris:know. I'm
djanai:No. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, Nope, Nope, Nope. It's not had nothing to do with that. No. Um, y'all if I'm not the only one who does that mixes, those two holidays up, please
kris:Okay. Yeah, never happens to me.
djanai:okay. Thank you better than me. Fuck you, Kristen. All right. So, um, y'all have a great week happy Valentine's day to you and your lovers. And, we'll be back next week. Bye
kris:Bye y'all.